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Black Male Privilege, Readdressed

I was late on the initial convo, it was up to 95 comments by the time I saw it, so I’m bringing part two. I was going to skip the conversation all together, but my mind keeps coming back to some points, so…

All quotes in italics are the words of mizcheyenne

People have a number of intersecting identities that can serve as a disadvantage or advantage to them, and having male privilege, being considered a complete and rational person to be taken seriously,

By whom, to what benefit? Actually we’re all considered dumb niggers by the ones with the financial and political power that create a benefit.

having personal bodily safety far above that of women

So how are black men to “own” this and then “not contribute to it”? This is a matter of nature. Are we to defy nature by taking estrogen hormones to wither down our muscle mass (and I don’t even think it works like that). I’d really have to have a thorough explanation to understand how being born as we are, is a particular privilege rather than just a natural state of thing that is unmolested by societal construct.


and the countless, innumerable other experiences that men have that show they are valued over women, is something every single man needs to recognize.

Again I have to ask, valued by whom, with what power, to what and who’s benefit?

For one who claims this is such a 101 issue, she failed to provide even elementary explanations to support her position.

You can’t lump black men in with white men and then say we all have the same privilege because we’re men. White male skin privilege is derived from there holding military/police might, political power that determines public policy, and the finances that determine access to all facets of life. In what way do black males hold such things over black women? To those respects, we’re all in the same boat.

YES, black women HAVE IT WORSE THAN YOU AT LARGE.

That’s not a matter of fact, that’s a matter of personal perspective. A pissing contest about who has it worst does not benefit black people at all, and the only ones who want to engage in such are the pseudo-revolutionaries who aren’t really down for the cause, but just down for being loud and extending their pointless teenage rebellion into adulthood; and use faux black nationalism as a vehicle to have something, anything to shout about.

Such people really don’t have a cause; they just have a lack of therapy.

This type of statement is akin to this Black guy from Africa (Nigeria I think) who basically tried to argue that black Americans have nothing to complain about because we don’t experience the type of poverty as do black African. Everybody’s poverty/debasement/oppression/marginalization is a big deal to the person it’s happening to, and just because yours feels worst to you, doesn’t mean the next person’s doesn’t feel the same to them.


In closing, both genders within the black race have issues that are race and gender specific. I don’t think either needs to belittle the others plight; and arguing over who’s dookie stick is bigger is counterproductive, and only leads to further gender alienation.

If some one can detail to me some specific of how black men control black woman’s access to healthcare and education, housing, loans, hiring that’d be good. Or if it’s not that then what benefits do black men derive from society that they have the power to keep black woman from?

Only real responses please, if you only have snark, just skip it.

No one is arguing that sexism and male privilege don't exist. Read my first comment in the post if you missed that

Comments

( 91 comments — Leave a comment )
(Deleted comment)
yobachi2003
Dec. 18th, 2006 07:57 pm (UTC)
I didn't argue that male privilege doesn't exist. I argued that it belongs to white men in this society; and that you cannot lump black men in with white men since we do not hold there power in society.

Now if anything backing the assertian otherwise could be demonstrated, that would be great.
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - yobachi2003 - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - yobachi2003 - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:31 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - youngcaesar - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:38 pm (UTC) - Expand
youngcaesar
Dec. 18th, 2006 07:56 pm (UTC)
I think you are missing major points about privilege within the black community, affecting it, inflicted upon it, and played out by it. I cannot believe anyone with sense would deny that women face sexism, and that this is a problem (and that in turn, men, including black men, benefit from sexism). It just doesn't make sense, it's the most insane thing I have ever heard anyone here say. Dialoguing about the way sexism effects the black community should not be a denial of it and an attempt to divert the discussion to some idea that since we all experience racism, we all are on an equal level of privilege. And for you to make a separate post to announce your possessive investment in your male privilege, which includes your need to act like it's not there because you're truly ignorant about it, is not necessary. It is not okay for you to try to convince someone that the way their life has been shaped by gender, doesn't exist because you are too ignorant and PRIVILEGED to see it.
yobachi2003
Dec. 18th, 2006 07:59 pm (UTC)
I cannot believe anyone with sense would deny that women face sexism,/i>

I didn't say that at all whatsoever! Read my comment above.

you are too ignorant and PRIVILEGED to see it.

You're too arrogant, full of yourself, and over bloated to actually make a valid point. All you have is cussing, insults, mine is bigger than yours, and pointing the finger.
(no subject) - youngcaesar - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
denim_queen
Dec. 18th, 2006 08:01 pm (UTC)
I was late on the initial convo, it was up to 95 comments by the time I saw it, so I’m bringing part two. I was going to skip the conversation all together, but my mind keeps coming back to some points, so…

Dismissive and condescending in first two sentences. Huzzah.


You know what? Why don't you give me some examples as to how Black men have acknowledged their privelege and what they are doing to actively fight against this? I saw the last thread chock full of men demanding answers yet few, very few, actually providing answers on how to solve anything. Hey maybe I missed it- care to point it out to me?

Also, I'm going to need two letters of references stating reasons why I should take you and this post seriously. Double-spaced, 12pt font Times New Roman, 1" margins al around.
yobachi2003
Dec. 18th, 2006 08:03 pm (UTC)
What was condescending about what you quoted, really?
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - yobachi2003 - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
kstone20059
Dec. 18th, 2006 08:05 pm (UTC)
I missed the initial post, can someone give me a link?
(no subject) - kstone20059 - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - youngcaesar - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mightypen - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:30 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kstone20059 - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:33 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - youngcaesar - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - youngcaesar - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:31 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - youngcaesar - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:31 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kstone20059 - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - kstone20059 - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
thewayoftheid
Dec. 18th, 2006 08:26 pm (UTC)
Thank you.
/thread.
(no subject) - youngcaesar - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - yobachi2003 - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - youngcaesar - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fightingwords - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - yobachi2003 - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:50 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - deedee_dancer - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - thewayoftheid - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:34 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - shadowfae - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:34 pm (UTC) - Expand
Another Thank You! - witchsistah - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:05 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Another Thank You! - karnythia - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:18 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - karnythia - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:17 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - recumbentgoat - Dec. 18th, 2006 11:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
gal_montag
Dec. 18th, 2006 08:27 pm (UTC)
Consider this, black men were allowed to vote before white women were allowed to vote. The *race * of a black man led people to try and prevent his voting, but not his gender.
yobachi2003
Dec. 18th, 2006 08:38 pm (UTC)
Ok, point there.

But where mizcheyenne says we have to own it and not contribute to it, did black men have control over that; or was that not white men extending down the power to disenfranchising woman across the board.

Maybe black men did not help to fight agaisnt that, and maybe that is also a point.
(no subject) - youngcaesar - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:51 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - gal_montag - Dec. 18th, 2006 08:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mightypen - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - gal_montag - Dec. 20th, 2006 11:37 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fightingwords - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - senecasaurus - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fightingwords - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
toodani
Dec. 18th, 2006 08:42 pm (UTC)
xposted from my journal
i just kinda feel bad for the guys. That race/sex/privelege thread (and now second thread) is just a bashing for y'all. I see very valid points coming from both sides, but somehow the women are hypersensitive to the responses and going into attack mode. I keep seeing a lot of accusations of the guys being ignorant, condescending, arrogant, dismissive, etc etc the insults go on and on. What i see the guys doing is tip-toeing all over themselves trying to provide counterpoints while still being sensitive to the other side and, very aware that they might just need more information, ask for that info, only to be told to go do some research. What kind of discussion is that? Hell the very first post responded to future male responders as Assholes. Before anyone even opened their mouth. If anything i think the women have been the most condescending in their responses. Snarky, eye-rolling, linking books and sites saying "read this" when the male asks for their experiences to explain further the statements they made. How in the world can you invite men into a conversation about a situation you believe they are unaware of and then belittle them for having no information on the subject?? And then someone stated it was the MEN doing a divide and conquer!? really??
gal_montag
Dec. 18th, 2006 08:56 pm (UTC)
Re: xposted from my journal
I see that in any kind of discussion about this kind of thing. Expecting people know things that in a white, partiarchal society they wouldn't have any reason to know unless they took classes specifically in those things.
Re: xposted from my journal - youngcaesar - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: xposted from my journal - fightingwords - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: xposted from my journal - karnythia - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: xposted from my journal - witchsistah - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: xposted from my journal - obsidianeyes - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: xposted from my journal - blackestsheep - Dec. 19th, 2006 02:45 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
Re: xposted from my journal - blackestsheep - Dec. 19th, 2006 06:11 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: xposted from my journal - toodani - Dec. 19th, 2006 06:44 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
mendemama
Dec. 18th, 2006 08:56 pm (UTC)
forget the prelims
like the coffee date and going steady. Let's move to Vermont and get married. I LOVE you.

It's like you keep taking the garbled-up incoherent stuff floating in my head, put in through the Good-Sense-Tressienator and it comes out all eloquent and wonderful.

Re: now you know i love you... - spkwrdsofbeauty - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: now you know i love you... - senecasaurus - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:34 pm (UTC) - Expand
deedee_dancer
Dec. 18th, 2006 08:53 pm (UTC)
Black Men would rather heap the abuse they suffer on Black Women than attack/confront the real source of their oppression: White Men.
yobachi2003
Dec. 18th, 2006 09:04 pm (UTC)
Some - true!
All - deedee_dancer - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: All - yobachi2003 - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:29 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: All - skywardprodigal - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:44 pm (UTC) - Expand
It's ok... - deedee_dancer - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: It's ok... - skywardprodigal - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:49 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: It's ok... - yobachi2003 - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: It's ok... - deedee_dancer - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: It's ok... - fightingwords - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: It's ok... - deedee_dancer - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: It's ok... - fightingwords - Dec. 19th, 2006 10:26 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: It's ok... - skywardprodigal - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
All... - deedee_dancer - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: It's ok... - toodani - Dec. 19th, 2006 06:14 am (UTC) - Expand
First of all... - deedee_dancer - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - skywardprodigal - Dec. 19th, 2006 01:03 am (UTC) - Expand
Right - deedee_dancer - Dec. 19th, 2006 01:45 am (UTC) - Expand
senecasaurus
Dec. 18th, 2006 09:33 pm (UTC)
the level of irony in this post is unnnnnreal.

i mean, i know it's real. because i see very clearly the demands for 'proof', the rejection of evidence, the oblique defensiveness, the framing/re-framing of the argument, and all the condescention and dismissals that i've seen anytime some negro is foolish enough to tell a space full of white people that they are full of privilege.

and i don't mean suprised. because this is what is REALLY wrong with Black communitites all over the world. so i've seen it before.

i mean i just can't believe it. i guess that's because i'm always so damn disappointed when it happens.
yobachi2003
Dec. 18th, 2006 09:35 pm (UTC)
And you don't see the irony of your statement being completely dismissive?
(no subject) - mightypen - Dec. 18th, 2006 09:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - deedee_dancer - Dec. 18th, 2006 10:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
obsidianeyes
Dec. 18th, 2006 11:03 pm (UTC)
Wait so to refute her original points rather than add to her thread , it became necessary for you to make a whole new thread to announce t hat at first you weren't gonna pay her any mind but now you feel like it so we must all listen.


IN which you prove that examples provied by tressiemc,deededancer,myself and countless others aren't good enough . Rather than address those specifically. It becomes time for you to do the they all said the same stuff even though I will cherry pick specific things said EARLY in a larger evolving conversation" to COMPLETELY disrespect her intent and her actual words and avoid the words of sisters ?

Senecasauraus girl I'm usually with you but that's not irony.

That's straight BULLSHIT!.


And your whole but that's the way god made us how can we fight god's making of us.

I know men 6'6 250 pounds who could bench press small houses . WHo have been kin d non intimadating , and how od they do it They understand that being that large is a benefit that gives them power and go out of their way to be kind and non disrespectful to women WITHOUT SACRFICING ONE IOTA of their masculinity NOT A ONE.

COntrast that with 5'6 135 soaking wet men who feel the earth is their playground.

So not only was your lil sneak in on "estrogen" snide and not at all as amusing as you hoped it would be , it is also WRONG.

( estrogen doesn't actually make you smaller or necessarily weaker. as I'm sure more than few 6ft sisters can attest toso GTFOHWTBS)

The problem lies not within the body make up but tehy way it is CHOSEN to be used.

No one and I don't think ANYONE who has been on the female side of this has said men are straight asswholes without adressing their SPECIFIC beefs to the specifc guy. But repeated posts of " someone prove it to me" aren't damaging?

Some one asked for a check in and when sisters started checking in it suddenly became picking on the men. THIS IS HOW FOLKS FEEL and for once can they feel and for someone who claims to be community minded why is it SO HARD for folks to listen and hear that this isn't gone be easy. This HURTS US EVERYDAY and if you were relaly concerned you'd let it be for the working of it out than just some way for you to foist YOUR vision of unity on us by basically asking us to tell you what you want to hear or quiet it down for the good of "unity"
delux_vivens
Dec. 19th, 2006 01:03 am (UTC)
a real response?
People have been going back and forth on this for over 30 years. Why is it a novelty now?
yobachi2003
Dec. 19th, 2006 05:09 am (UTC)
Re: a real response?
I haven't been alive for 30 years, nor "going back and forth" on it for anytime so...
Re: a real response? - delux_vivens - Dec. 19th, 2006 06:50 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: a real response? - yobachi2003 - Dec. 19th, 2006 02:49 pm (UTC) - Expand
kristiangrrl
Dec. 19th, 2006 01:23 am (UTC)
A ranty contribution, but it's my $0.02.
While you're not arguing that male privilege is nonexistent, minimizing its importance is just as bad and detrimental to any serious conversation we can have here.

Personal bodily safety is not a matter of nature, and it is a privileged pattern of thinking that makes you automatically link "body" to "nature" when the damned statement has nothing to do with biological differences and everything to do with social interactions. A black woman cannot walk down the street without facing some abuse about what she is or is not doing for the black male that sees her. And in some situations, she cannot safely tell him to stop making advances at her or to stop belittling her.

While white males do hold political and economic power in society as a whole, the role of black males by comparison are overemphasized in our communities as holding the same potential. There are certain behaviors that the community takes for granted that play into male privilege, such as entitlement to black women's bodies above all and any other men, the idea that a male authority in the household is essential and should go unchecked in the family structure, the concept of machismo that affects any sort of real outreach between black men and black women, and the choice black males make to mimic the images produced in popular culture -- including the denigration of black women. Some of it deals with race, but the gender component also plays an important role.

Even in black communities, you see many efforts to reach out to black men, to uplift black men, to educate and to employ black men in the attempts of creating future leaders, and black women are left to fend for themselves. You see before and after these efforts the need black men have to be coddled and to be appreciated just for doing simple and considerate things.

You even see it in this thread, where women are trying to engage in conversation about sexism and privilege in the black community. First we hear that the discussion isn't good enough for the black men here to take seriously. Then, by offering some things to read on the subject and trying to flush out the point, we hear that we're "attacking" black men. And after all this, the men who have stayed just to tell about this so-called half-assed attempt and all these attacks want a cookie for staying? You don't think the conversation isn't painful for black women to have, because we presumedly have to support you, to back you, to comfort you, to be there for you and to encourage you through every damned thing? We're suddenly not important or good enough to even bring up a topic worthy of your attention?
kristiangrrl
Dec. 19th, 2006 01:26 am (UTC)
Re: A ranty contribution, but it's my $0.02.
And getting back to the second statement, the personal bodily safety does merge into talks about rape and single motherhood (though that's more of a matter of personal bodily security than safety). But it still isn't a claim that should be dismissed and that you should run crying to Mother Nature for, and it is something that you can own and that you can change just like tressie mentioned earlier.
Re: A ranty contribution, but it's my $0.02. - xayide79 - Dec. 19th, 2006 02:44 am (UTC) - Expand
matonya
Dec. 19th, 2006 05:50 am (UTC)
What briliant thoughts!!!
Only if we could make such bright ideas into bullets!
Why do we have to continue the proliferation of discourses that only push real issues, the object of our talks, into the margin? I can see all sexists and racists who read these discussion say, "let them talk their lives away, and when it is done we will all return to the normalcy"

Why don't all of us meet and decide on the actions, rather than just speak these issues from the comfort of our rooms through these faceless chat rooms?

I would be happy if we decided to organize these debates into decisive actions. I believe our actions would be as impressive and effective as our talks.
cynicgal
Dec. 20th, 2006 02:05 am (UTC)
Re: What briliant thoughts!!!
Chuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurch. That's what I'm saying.
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